Saturday, April 1, 2017

Scoffers and Mockers Are Making My Life Miserable

Poor old Dave Pack.  He just cannot get over the fact that almost all in the Churches of God consider him to be crazier than hell and have no desire to come over to his side.  Of course he never takes any responsibility that people might possibly think he was nuts. Instead he lays the blame on all of the mean "mockers and scoffers" that are "in all corners" including many in the COG's.  He can't possibly meaning of us here, could he?  Due to all of the scoffers people will not know when his "jesus" returns to Wadsworth.
Mockers” and “scoffers” rule in all corners, including everywhere among God’s people (II Pet. 2:3; Jude 18). The result is that when there is still sufficient time to escape, most (but not all) cannot make themselves “take heed” (Lk. 21:8, 34; Mk. 13:33).

HWA Japanese "Son's" Worship His Statue Before Shooting Up The Ambassador Auditorium

The Mind You Save May Be Your Own

1. Tacit Enabler - Supports another's bad habits by staying silent. 

2. Overt Enabler - Supports another's bad habits by providing assistance such as money, transportation, approval, etc... 

A person who supports another person's bad or dangerous habits  (Author note: Or interpretations, title taking and  rules for others to follow)

Enablers tend to fear calling others on their destructive habits because these "others" tend to be friends, family or others close to the enabler. 

Thus, rather than risk losing the love, respect, friendship or contact with the person, the enabler chooses instead to play it safe and watch the other slowly destroy themselves or others through their own actions.
The Churches of God are full of enablers and those who, at best, are standing up on the inside, i.e. reserving judgment or actually disagreeing on the inside, but sitting down dutifully on the outside.  
From the rubber stamping church board or council, to the congregants as a whole, the crazy man who dreams up, surely finds himself spoken of by the prophets or simply seizes his place and title through the shear power of his will and narcissism, eventually provides everyone that enables a reason to give pause for themselves to ask, "why do?did I do that?"
Example:  From "Why Unification Now?"  Dave Pack, 2013
"15) Next, for those who will see the value of how to pursue spiritual matters, there is this: After fervently seeking God about it, not one reason the prophecy is off this year ever emerged in the minds of even one of our 16 Headquarters ministers! I (we) have NEVER prayed about, studied over, meditated on, fasted about and counseled with other ministers regarding a subject more than this one—in fact no other subject is even close!Now comes a series of reasons Haggai’s prophecy will be fulfilled this year. 

Shame on these still unknown 16 who should know better by now

16) Similarly, as questions emerged throughout our pursuit of truth with the many details of the prophecy, so many of these details kept coming clear as direct answers to prayer. And these were often immediate.

These prayers and truths weren't really answered and the truths weren't true.  They were only "immediate" because Dave already knew what he was going to say and do.  Anyone within the enablers ever bother to point this out to Dave Pack ever?  

If not:

Sadly, and of course, Dave Pack was miserably wrong in 2013 about all this which needs to be provided from time to time to remind his and other enablers of bad theology and terrible spiritual leadership they have a responsibility to speak up and question "if you were this wrong then with such enthusiasm and surety, why would we think you are correct this time?"


"Now comes a series of reasons Haggai’s prophecy will be fulfilled this year. (2013) They are summarized, with only a very little detail added. More could be said of each, but the descriptions given will suffice to those willing to think just a little about them. Realize there are over 30 more reasons—many of them very powerful—that I have left off the list because some will be covered later or because they would only be recognized as proofs by our Headquarters ministry (involving various miracles, some big). Readers would be largely unable to appreciate them as proofs:

1) Understanding the meaning of the prophecy, starting with Haggai 1:2, automatically carries the requirement of taking a position on it. This cannot be avoided after one learns it. Think about this. The position of the remnant is that “the time is not come” to rebuild God’s House. Are they right or wrong? God indicts their thinking, meaning they are wrong! If the prophecy is not now, the net effect would be that God agrees with the remnant’s view. Worse, so should those currently in God’s one Church because they now know the meaning of the prophecy. Think this through. One does or does not agree with the remnant. God does not—and we do not. The time is now!  (2013) Let’s go further.

2) Directly related, why (or how) would God command the remnant to “Go…build the House!” (Hag. 1:8)—but not mean NOW? (2013) How could He mean some undetermined future year? Why would God tell them (twice) to “consider their ways”—but not mean that they should do this now? Try to imagine God saying, “Consider your ways, but take your time. There’s no hurry. In fact, take years to think it over—even though you have been out of My Church for 20 years! You don’t have to DO anything now.”

3) Also related, if God waited 2,500 years to reveal the prophecy’s meaning (3,000 years when various related much older Psalms are considered), is not His waiting done? Does His revealing it not signal that He has reached the time to fulfill it rather than having reached a point one, two or three years out?

4) Next, why would God wait longer? What would He wait for? The remnant is absolutely ripe for deliverance.

5) Internally, and this is no small thing, God’s Church is truly ready to expand the Work in a BIG WAY. The prophecy features this as the MAIN PURPOSE of the remnant returning! Without the prophecy’s fulfillment, this expansion would be delayed one year—or more! Why would God notify His Church of the prophecy’s existence at the very same time our staff is ready, our websites are ready, our literature is ready and even God’s college is ready for more students if the prophecy were not imminent? Why would God notify His Church if HE were not ready?

6) Related to this, the buildings on our campus can very soon handle significantly more staff than we have now. This is already true without the other two buildings scheduled for completion in the late fall. However, this extra size works perfectly if the prophecy occurs this year.

7) Also related, but separate, our infrastructure is ready to receive and serve a much larger flock this fall! This includes field ministry being ready, but also other things.

8) Maturing interest from many in the world due to one year of explosive television expansion requires many more laborers in the ministry by this autumn.

9) The Restored Church of God is experiencing an AWESOME period of growth and development at this time—in the runup period just prior to the prophecy’s fulfillment. This is putting it mildly! To us, this is powerful indication that we are on the right track for this year—that God is not only pleased with His Church, but that He is helping it get ready.

10) If the prophecy did not happen this year, (2013) the remnant would remain another year (or more) undergoing ever worsening false ways. Worse off, they would have a commensurate shorter time to spiritually recover before the Tribulation. Think worse condition, less time to recover.

11) If reunification occurred next year (or any year after), those with God’s Spirit would have one more year cut off from God’s Church. This carries the potential for more to quench the Holy Spirit (I Thes. 5:19) and lose salvation.

12) The readers of the Haggai prophecy announcements (this is #21) who believed them would be the most disillusioned and the biggest candidates to QUIT everything if God did not return His people to one House this year! This would work directly against what God is doing—directly opposite His overall purpose.

13) Further desolation (Hag. 1:11; 2:16-17) from God of the splinter “houses” would practically wipe out the few remaining senior leaders in them. This includes pastors and elders, all of whom are NEEDED TO CARRY OUT THE BIG WORK!

14) The onset of all future years would never come with clarity—with any certainty! Would God leave thousands who are now aware of this prophecy in such a condition? Hardly.

(Author: Well there ya go enablers.  Dave cannot, no matter how hard he tries, "clarify" his mistaken ideas about himself or his views of scripture after being so off base theologically)

15) Next, for those who will see the value of how to pursue spiritual matters, there is this: After fervently seeking God about it, not one reason the prophecy is off this year (2013) ever emerged in the minds of even one of our 16 Headquarters ministers! I (we) have NEVER prayed about, studied over, meditated on, fasted about and counseled with other ministers regarding a subject more than this one—in fact no other subject is even close!

16) Similarly, as questions emerged throughout our pursuit of truth with the many details of the prophecy, so many of these details kept coming clear as direct answers to prayer. And these were often immediate.

17) Recall Haggai 1:13: “Then spoke Haggai the Lord’s messenger in the Lord’s message unto the people…” Haggai is the messenger to God’s people, with what is an all-important message from God. Would not God make clear in such a unique message He describes as “the Lord’s message unto His people” the correct date for action? What kind of message would it be if people did not know WHEN TO CARRY IT OUT?

(Author's note:  A false one perpetuated by enablers?)

18) Since the apostasy, God had not wanted the remnant back in His Church, but now He does. He would first reveal the remnant to His leader, then tell him how they would return, and finally that He meant NOW. This was the order in which these things became apparent.

19) Imagine God not revealing the year the remnant is coming—but only the day and month. Vast amounts of time would have been wasted by His leaders studying and preparing for something that was not imminent. Would God put His Church in such a position?

   20) Of interest, God revealed to me during ELUL four years ago my role as the modern Joshua.

(Authors note:  And enablers allowed him to perpetuate this fantasy)

21) Also of interest, I and The Restored Church of God learned about the New Testament remnant last ELUL (August). Let’s ask: Would timing of when we were shown the prophecy not be tied to its unique timing of fulfillment during the very next available ELUL?

22) We might ask: does the DEVIL know the prophecy is on? For those who understand how the devil works—that he counterfeits EVERYTHING God does—a variety of counterfeit theories have recently appeared about how God is going to reunite His people. Should not the devil be expected to do this at the time it would cause the most confusion? You will soon see that most of these theories are coming from men standing on the wrong side of this prophecy.

23) With God’s people split up, it is now almost impossible to do a powerful Work. (This might be the one area where the splinter leaders would agree.) God’s Church is largely stymied in working with both brethren and the world because of the confusion and deception from top leaders about where God’s Church is, who has the truth, who is carrying on after Mr. Armstrong, who is doing the true Work, etc. (Reread #22.) There is no other way to proceed than for God to remove leaders who have lulled with deceit many thousands who were blind (Rev. 3:17) to begin with.

24) World conditions cry out for a big Work NOW!!!—not one or more years from now (2013.)

Please stop enabling the delusional. The life you save may be your own.

Friday, March 31, 2017

Dr. James Tabor: " Paul and Jesus"

James Tabor

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
James D. Tabor (born 1946 in Texas) is a Professor in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, where he has taught since 1989 and served as Chair from 2004-2014. He previously held positions at Ambassador College (1968-70 while a student at Pepperdine University), the University of Notre Dame (1979–85), and the College of William and Mary (1985–89).


The Apostle Paul has long been a controversial figure to modern Christians, but in recent years, his life and writings have spawned a plethora of books dedicated to reevaluating his role in the Christian faith. Tabor (Religious Studies/Univ. of North Carolina, Charlotte; The Jesus Dynasty: The Hidden History of Jesus, His Royal Family, and the Birth of Christianity, 2006, etc.) throws his hat into the ring, attempting to define Paul and his version of Jesus Christ against that of the original Jerusalem church, headed by James. The author stresses that the traditional view—that Paul was in harmony with the original apostles, ministering to the gentiles while they ministered to Jews—is a complete fabrication. Instead, he believes that Paul was in direct conflict with James, Peter and the rest of the original Christian church. This conflict was based not just on personality or approach; it spoke to Paul’s fundamental understanding of the identity of Jesus Christ, which differed from that taught by the original apostles. It is Paul’s understanding of Jesus, Tabor avers, that won the day, coming down to us in Scripture and doctrine. The author blames this historical legacy on a conscious effort by Paul’s followers to minimize the influence of James and the Jerusalem church, while promoting Paul’s theology. Books of the Bible such as Acts, he explains, were written specifically to present a Paul-focused version of emerging Christianity. Tabor tends to sensationalize tenets of Christian doctrine to highlight his view that Paul’s ideas were radical, while also pushing the conspiracy theories (e.g., “process of mythmaking”) about New Testament Scriptures that have been covered by such authors as Bart Ehrman.
His ultimate claim that Paul saw himself as a second Messiah seems like an inflated reading of the Pauline letters, and it will prove controversial with most Christians.


I previously offered the chance for Ian to present his reason why Armstrongism is still superior to other churches.  Let the conversation...or fireworks begin.


Ian Boyne is a Church of God, International Pastor in Jamaica

As someone who has spent over four decades studying philosophy (particularly epistemology and philosophy of religion) theology and comparative religions, as well being as a specialist religion writer and broadcaster, I have long thought of  issuing  this challenge: That Armstrongism—minus its obscurantism and fanaticism—is actually far superior to all other brands  of  conservative Christianity, and that the most intellectually defensible alternative to  Reformed Armstrongism is agnosticism or theistic  existentialism.

As I have read the serious scholarly journals in theology and philosophy and kept up with the latest books in the fields, I have become more convinced that far more credit should be given to the high school dropout Herbert Armstrong than he actually gets.

Because there has been so much focus on the corruption, authoritarianism, abuse and exploitation in the movement—and that is both overwhelming and irrefutable---little time has been spent showing how much better a religious  system Armstrongism is—absent its errors—than its alternatives.

As someone who has experienced many “long, dark nights of the soul” and who has had to wrestle intellectually and emotionally with major philosophical and theological issues, I could never see myself rejecting certain cardinal tenets of Armstrongism and going on to embrace orthodox Christianity, either of the Protestant or Catholic version. (Though, ironically to some, I would find Catholicism more attractive than Evangelicalism.)  As I read certain ex-Armstrongites attacking the movement (and I have every book ever published on the movement  and  have read every Ambassador Report),  it  has struck me again that many persons who  are celebrating their release from “the bondage of Armstrongism” have really bought into inferior versions of revealed religion without  realizing it.

For example, I could never,  like some who  have gone back to orthodox Christianity,  go back to the barbaric and repulsive belief that a loving God would create a hell to burn people for all eternity—most of whom never even had an opportunity to learn about him. Notice how abominable this doctrine---strongly rejected by Armstrong—really is. The billions of persons in communist China, Hindu India  and those under  the former Iron Curtain  who, through no fault of their own were born in the “wrong country”, have to spend an eternity in hell for the Bible says “there is in other name under heaven whereby men must be saved except the name of Jesus”.

Yet this God is too impotent to get His Gospel across to people. Not to mention  the obnoxious Calvinist belief that God actually decreed, for His own  glory and in His sovereignty,  that some would be lost and burn forever in hell. The atheists have developed a brilliant Argument From Non-Belief to counter this horrendous “Christian” doctrine of people’s being lost through own ignorance and non-belief. (See especially Theodore Drange’s  brilliant book,  Non-Belief and Evil)

Some, struck with the incongruity of the loving God (as portrayed in the Bible) casting  ignorant people in Hell for all eternity come up with  the view that God will judge people by the sincerity of their hearts and their good works and let the good ones into the kingdom.

But wait: Isn’t  Sola Fide (faith alone) and Sola Gratia (grace alone) at the heart of the Protestant doctrine of  justification by faith? Then how can God look at how well the Buddhist, Hindu and Sufi lived and let them into Heaven based on their works when works are supposed to have nothing to do with right standing?

Evangelicalism, which  some ex-Armstrongites like Martha and the Bereans website  friends  have bought into, can’t match the philosophical and theological force of the Armstrongite teaching that a good, loving and just God will find a way for every single human being to come to a knowledge of the truth—including the mentally retarded, the mentally ill  as well the sincere atheists and agnostics who did not have enough evidence to believe.

Even the apostate WCG cannot let go of this refreshing teaching of Herbert Armstrong. Significantly, Armstrongism is the only movement which says it alone is right and yet which opens the  door for those who disagree to be saved eventually. This is a  most compassionate view which should promote tolerance. 
Herbert Armstrong, contrary to his Evangelical critics, actually did more to promote  the exclusivity of Christianity and Christ by stating that good Buddhists, good Muslims,  good Hindus, good Bahais etc. would not be saved in their ignorance  just because they were not wicked like Hitler; but would get their chance to learn the one truth and make a personal confession of Christ (See Romans 10). 

Evangelicals, Church of God 7th Day  and Seventh-Day Adventists have more than one way of salvation—one for those who heard and rejected Christ and another for the millions who died without hearing, leaving God  no option but to  find a way to get them to His Kingdom without their having personally accepted Christ.

So if he could do that for  so many “good heathens”, why allow so much evil in the world ostensibly to accommodate free will ,which  He then takes away by putting people in  Heaven who never really made that personal choice?  There  is not enough space  to point  out the serious moral and theological problems which orthodox Christianity poses. It is a pity that so many are so emotionally scarred and abused that they might not have the  intellectual energy—or interest—to look at the strengths in the theology of  Armstrongism.

I admit I am  deeply  embarrassed, even angered, as a thinking  Armstrongite (an oxymoron?) to read the nonsense taught by the lunatic fringe in the movement (In fact, they are so many they might even be the mainstream!)

I am happy for the CGI, to which I belong,  which retains the finest teachings of Herbert Armstrong without the dross and the excesses. I am NOT saying it is the only true church! For all GTA’s moral weaknesses and reprehensible personal behaviour, he reformed a system without throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  Ron Dart’s work in the CGI has also been invaluable in preserving an intellectually respectable brand of Armstrongism.

The atrocious doctrine of an ever-burning hell; the view that billions of sincere people will be lost simply because they never knew about Christ; the severing of Christianity from its Hebraic roots and the Hellenisation of  Christianity; the de-emphasis on the eschatological Kingdom  of God and the  profound truth of the eventual deification of humans are some of the major reasons I could not leave Armstrongism for orthodox Christianity. Agnosticism or theistic Existentialism is a far better option to me.  The God of Evangelicalism, Adventism and orthodox Christianity is not worthy to be worshipped. Herbert Armstrong had that right.

Mr. Ian Boyne, CD, was appointed Deputy Chief Executive Officer of the Jamaica Information Service (JIS) in 2010. His responsibilities include serving as Chief State Liaison to the Office of the Prime Minister, Office of the Governor-General and the Office of the Leader of the Opposition and giving oversight to the Research, Publications and Production (Editorial and Photo) Division.
Host of the Agency’s flagship interview programme, Issues and Answers, Mr. Boyne furthers the public education thrust of the JIS through his incisive range of questions which elucidate the Government’s response to the national issues of the day.
Mr. Boyne has had a long career with the JIS as he first joined the entity when it was known as the Agency for Public Information (API) in 1976 as feature writer and television broadcaster. In 1983 he became the Press Secretary/Speech Writer to the then Minister of Industry and Commerce, Douglas Vaz and from then to 2002 worked with every Minister of Industry under successive administrations as Speech Writer/Public Relations Consultant after which he rejoined the JIS in 2002.
In the media fraternity, he is regarded as a veteran journalist who entered the profession in 1975. Outside of the JIS, he is the host of the 26 year old TVJ programme Profile, the host of Religious Hardtalk and a columnist for the Sunday Gleaner.
In 2009, the Government of Jamaica recognized his contribution to journalism with the Commander of the Order of Distinction (CD).
Mr. Boyne is a Minister of Religion and the author of “Ideas Matter: Journey into the Mind of a Veteran Journalist.

Thursday, March 30, 2017

LCG: Some members are shocked that Mario Hernandez will be the public face of LCG in Cuba

According to Gerald Weston, Mario Hernandez will be trotting off to Cuba to be the public face of LCG to the Cuban nation.  I cannot imagine people who have suffered mightily through the legalism of the laws of socialism, with many who have died because of it, would embrace more legalism in a church.  God is not bound up in the demands, rules and regulations of the LCG.  What the Cuban people need more than anything is freedom with grace, not arrogant narcissistic bubbling lectures by Mario on how things should be.

LCG is not presenting "original Christianity" to the Cubans. Besides, which version would they be presenting?  James version?  Paul's version? The Cubans will hear very little about Jesus but lots and lots about the law.

Now for that wonderful news. Mr. Mario Hernandez, our Spanish Regional Director, and Mr. George Schaubeck from Costa Rica recently visited Cuba, where God is beginning to do a work in an area that was once closed to us. How exciting it is to reach out to people who have not previously been introduced to original Christianity and all that this means! Messrs. Hernandez and Schaubeck visited with about 50 people in total, people who had come in contact with us via the Internet or personal acquaintances and requested we contact them. Some 30 people were already committed enough to attend a Sabbath service conducted by Mr. Hernandez. One man was baptized, but we expect many more will take that step in the near future, and we are now making preparations to hold the Feast of Tabernacles on the island for what we believe will be the first time ever! 
These truth-seekers are what the Bible refers to as firstfruits(James 1:18). They are stepping out in faith to join with others whom God is calling to do a Work at the end of the age. In a real sense they are pioneers of the age to come, the time that we refer to as Tomorrow’s World, when Jesus Christ returns to this troubled planet to set up His Kingdom. They are the called of God, and if they respond to that call and are chosen and remain faithful to the end (Revelation 17:14), God will resurrect them to be king-priests to teach these same truths to others (Revelation 5:9-10; 20:4).

Living Church of God: Are members struggling with hardening hearts

The poor LCG member just can never get it right. Apparently some LCG members are "hardening their hearts" and are no longer teachable.  In other words, if you dare question anything you have a bad attitude and have hardened your heart against the "truth" relayed to church members.  Why can't church leaders ever write anything positive for their member?  Perhaps talk about Jesus...though I know that is a big stretch.  When he is talked  it is by making church member feel guilty about crucifying him.

Are You Teachable? The Scriptures reveal that an important quality of character that God is looking for in Christians and future leaders in His Kingdom is teachability—the desire and willingness to listen and learn. Abraham was teachable and responsive to God’s instructions (Genesis 12:1-4). Moses was a very capable leader, yet he was also humble and teachable (Numbers 12:3). David’s attitude comes through in Psalm 119:33 when he writes “Teach me, O LORD, the way of your statutes.” Solomon recognized his human inadequacies when he asked God for wisdom and an “understanding heart,” so that he could learn to rule God’s people wisely (1 Kings 3:9). When Jesus said the meek and the poor in spirit are blessed, He was emphasizing their teachability and their willingness to learn and grow (Matthew 5:3-5). The Scriptures also reveal that when we harden our hearts to God’s instruction, we will reap serious consequences (Proverbs 28:14). We have been called to reign with Jesus Christ in the coming Kingdom of God—and being teachable is one of the keys to attaining that reward. Let’s strive to develop this most important quality.
Have a profitable Sabbath,
Douglas S. Winnail

United Church of God Still Disgusted By The Cross

United Church of God's ignorant response to crosses at their upcoming feast site is just as absurd as Almost-arrested Bob Thiel's outrage at the crosses planted in the snow in honor of the Milwaukee COG murder victims. They still want to know as little as possible about the man they claim to follow while still pretending to be followers.

I wanted to let you know about one of UCG's newest feast sites. It is in Lake Junaluska, North Carolina.  
What gets me is that organizations like UCG continually preach against these so-called "false Christians" and their wrong doctrines. Yet, they meet for services on the Sabbath (at their church halls, and now this feast site). They are the ultimate hypocrites! They'll be telling the membership (at the feast) how "we are to come out of this world" and they are right there with those they adamantly preach against.
UCG posted this note on their site:
"On Lake Junaluska’s informational signs there are small crosses and there is a large cross at the far end of the lake. However, there are no crosses in the hall where services will be held."
--Former member of WCG and RCG

See previous stories here on Banned:

James Malm: People Who Wear Crosses Are Followers of the Anti-Christ

I Wish I Had 6-20 Hours to Be Able To Sit In Front Of All COG Members And Answer Questions...

...and then they would join me because of all the amazing truths I would tell them  Dave Pack is letting his mind wander again.  The overwhelming majority of COG members would rather trot to the lake of fire on a fast horse with a porcupine saddle than sit for 6 - 20 hours listening to his delusional mind babble on.  On top of all that, he apparently envisions himself a modern day Paul.

I wish I could sit down face to face with the whole church for about six hours and have what Paul did in Acts 20…went so long, Eutychus fell and killed himself, if you know the story. [laughter] I wouldn’t want that part, but we’d just resurrect him if that happened, I guess, like Paul did, and go on. But I wish I could have 6 or 10 or 20 hours with all the thousands of God’s people around the world—in one place—and just answer questions…just a giant Q&A session. I wish I could. There’s no way to do that, but let’s hold a survey for a moment about what we’ve learned. Go back to the subject of questions, and let’s ask a question before we get into the sermon. Would anyone rather I did not give so much detail? Should I leave points and details out? You know, less material, just less material?

I was trained by two of the greatest COG Exorcists and have the ability to discern demons

Dave Pack is also the world's greatest exorcist.  Is there anything the man cannot least in his own eyes?  It is a shame he cannot discern the demon staring back at him every morning in the mirror.

“…and in your name have cast out demons? and in your name done many wonderful works?” Now, let me stop. These are many who cast out demons. I finally understand why it talks about that. I knew, personally the two men…and I’ve explained this before, who knew more about casting out demons than any ministers in Worldwide. If you put me in there, the three of us cast out more demons than probably any other 300 ministers, because I had those two fine mentors, Frank McCrady and Jim Reyer. The first man is deceased; the other still alive at age 85.
And most ministers avoided demons like the plague. This is not something that’s common. Rarely did anybody everever cast out a demon. They tended to explain them away as psychological problems. I remember being at a Feast, as early as 1976, when a minister senior to me said, “Go get Dave Pack”—and I was only twenty-seven years old. But from then on, and before that really, because these men were so close to me…those two gentlemen…I learned most men did not deal with demons. They didn’t recognize them. They didn’t discern them, which is a gift. If you’re in the Body of Christ, discerning of spirits includes demons. They never dealt with them, so who are the many who cast out demons? And the many who did many wonderful works? Before I answer that question, verse 23 is shocking…